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Amazon CEO Adam Jassy On The Company’s Growth And Media Ambitions

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Following is the unofficial transcript of a CNBC exclusive interview with Amazon CEO Andy Jassy on CNBC’s “TechCheck” (M-F, 11AM-12PM ET) airing today, Tuesday, September 14th. Following are links to video on CNBC.com:

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Q2 2021 hedge fund letters, conferences and more

Amazon CEO: We Experienced 2-3 Years Of Growth In 18 Months

Andy Jassy On A.I. And The Company’s Media Ambitions

Amazon CEO Adam Jassy: Real Divide In US Educational Opportunities

Part I

JON FORTT: Okay. Andy Jassy. Here we are again. And now, you're not the CEO of AWS, you are the CEO of Amazon. Congratulations. And so, is it any more likely than it's been the previous five or six times I've asked that you think it's a good idea to spin out AWS from Amazon?

ANDY JASSY: I knew you'd ask me that question.

JON FORTT: I always do—

ANDY JASSY: Every year you ask me that question.

JON FORTT: Every year. So, I figured I'd get it out of the way up front.

ANDY JASSY: No, I, I don't think it's any more likely. You know, I think all the same things we've talked about in the past make it, you know, a long shot.

JON FORTT: Yeah. Okay. So, last week, a judge ruled in the Apple-Epic case in I think a way that has some broader implications for technology, for big tech. I mean similar to Apple, customers love Amazon but there's all this government pressure these days to perhaps change business practices. So I, I wonder, do you think Amazon's focus continues to be on the customer solely and that ends up solving the other problems or is there a different way now as CEO that you need to adjust because of the government messages and pressures?

ANDY JASSY: I think that always our focus is gonna be the customers. You know, I think if you look at, I've been at the company for 24 and a half years now, Jon, and the strategy is, is largely the same which is, you know, we exist to help make customers' lives better and easier and we relentlessly invent to make it so. And that's always gonna be our approach, in, in lots of different types of areas where we can help customers have a better customer experience. So that will always be our focus. And I think that when, when you look at, you know, efforts to look at larger companies that have been more successful, you gotta always look at what you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish and make sure in the process you don't hurt some of the people that and some of the businesses that have made, you know, very good livings off of some of those properties and so, when I think about Amazon, we have over 550,000 small- and medium-sized businesses that get access to Amazon's hundreds of millions of customers in a way they wouldn't be able to otherwise access. I mean it's easy to have a website. It's inexpensive to do so and, and most of the small businesses have that but to get access to hundreds of millions of customers is hard. And, and it, we wanna make sure in whatever we do we don't hurt small- and medium-sized businesses, or consumers, who have very broad choice and selection of prices and low prices because of all those sellers. So I, I think that whenever you're looking at trying to address something like businesses that have gotten larger, you gotta make sure you do so in a way that doesn't harm small- and medium-sized businesses and, and consumers.

JON FORTT: And I wonder about this divide in perception and in messaging that's coming on that very point. Four weeks before you officially became CEO in July, a group of lawmakers in the House Anti-Trust Subcommittee put forward five bills that specifically target four companies, Apple, Facebook, Google and you guys, Amazon. And in the press release David Cicilline, the congressman, said, "Right now, unregulated tech monopolies have too much power over our economy." A judge just said, one at least one of those companies is not a monopoly at least in the app store. What, what is your response to that framing and that messaging of what's going on in the economy?

ANDY JASSY: Well, again, each of these companies and each of these businesses are very different from one another so that term of, of big tech never really resonates for me because technology's really a delivery mechanism and our business is very different from Apple's business, which is really different from Google's business, which is really different from Microsoft's business and Facebook's business so they're all different. And I think that when, when you look at whether a company is a monopoly or not, you know, the first thing you look at is, you know, what kind of market segment share they have. If you look in our retail business, our retail business is just about 1% of the worldwide retail market segment. So, it's, you know, it's, it's nowhere close to a majority share. And usually monopolies are, are you, you kinda look at monopoly power when you have the power to increase prices in an unconstrained way where there isn't competition. And if you look in our businesses, all of them and again, I'll, I'll just start with retail, we compete with very large companies. These are companies like Walmart and Target and Kroger and yeah, and, and some very successful digital companies like eBay and Etsy and Wayfair. And we don't have the ability to, to raise prices in any kinda unfettered way. In fact, if you look at what we normally do, we're constantly taking prices down because there's a lotta competition in these markets. So again, it sometimes the rhetoric sounds good but you gotta look at what reality is. And at 1% of worldwide retail, it's, it's hard to argue that's a monopoly.

JON FORTT: Well, let's talk pandemic because I think a lot of people experienced shopping through e-commerce during the pandemic. And what's your take on how, if at all that event, that we're still in, has influenced both e-commerce, Amazon's mission, the perception of Amazon?

ANDY JASSY: Well, I think that the pandemic, I mean what a crazy period. I don't think any of us have lived through anything like that before and I hope we never live through anything like that after. And I think very early on in the pandemic we realized that whatever role Amazon plays in the world typically, we are gonna have to play an increasingly important role with so many establishments that were gonna be shut down. And so, you know, I, I think more and more people were for, you know, people had been using e-commerce for a long time, but always in combination with physical retail and the overwhelming majority of retail remains in, in physical retail but because of the pandemic, more and more people had to try e-commerce and I think that they realized that it was convenient and broad selection, and, and lower prices. And I think that you'll see moving forward an increasing amount of share that's moving to e-commerce over time.

JON FORTT: Did you feel like you guys even you've, you've got physical retail, Whole Foods, were more ready or, you know, were maybe taking plans for 2023 and, and pulling them forward or anything like that?

ANDY JASSY: Yeah. I think that we've, we feel like we experienced probably two to three years of growth in 18 months. And so, I don't, you couldn't probably responsibly plan for, for a pandemic or the amount of capacity that's needed. Just to give you an idea, Jon, we spent the first 24, 25 years of Amazon building a very broad fulfillment center network and over the last 18 to 18 months to two years, we've had to double that footprint. So, it, it, it brought on unprecedented demand. I think that there were plenty of things in, in the process that we know we could do better but I think the, the way that we were able to help so many people get the PPE they needed, the food they needed, the items they needed, both to function as well as to stay sane during the pandemic when we were all at home and, you know, on the AWS side, just the ability to allow companies and governments to have business continuity, I think it was, it was pretty remarkable and we're really proud of how, what, how we tried to help during the pandemic.

JON FORTT: Yeah. Another part of the pandemic I think around 18-ish months before it hit us, at least in the U.S., Amazon announced HQ2. Right? A physical space. Virginia. Build out. Now, in the world of work that we're in where there's more remote, there's more hybrid, if you were doing it all over again in a sense, I guess you're doing everything all over again every day, do you have to change the HQ2 plan? Do you need an HQ2 in the same sense that you might have thought you needed one two years ago?

ANDY JASSY: It's a great question. And I think so much is, is undetermined now, as we start to have people come back to physical offices. And I think all of us are trying to sort out what that's gonna look like. You know, I, I think that people have much more flexibility than they had in the past. They work from more places and locations than they did in the past. It remains to be seen whether people are really back most of the days of the week or not. I think a lot of it will relate to the function that you perform. There are certain jobs where you can just as easily, in some cases more effectively, work remotely. If you take an engineer, for example, when they get into the mode of coding, being on their own where they're not distracted or, or interrupted is, is very helpful. And there are other jobs where you really need to be with the team physically to collaborate and invent and, and build together. And so I think we're, we're sorting all that out, like everybody else. I don't think we regret in any way, shape or, or fashion having HQ2 in Arlington. We, I think we believe that the future, while it may be more hybrid, that we're gonna, we're gonna often have people in the office together. And we're gonna want people to gather together. And we wanted to have our teams in a more distributed fashion than we were before. And Arlington has been a terrific partner for us. We've hired many thousands of people on our way to 25,000 in the next few years. And I think that's a great partnership and we're really excited about it.

JON FORTT: Do you have to rethink economic impact? Because that's calculated based on assumptions about people being in offices and going down for lunch and small businesses getting that kind of an impact, where there's probably still an impact, but maybe people are at home and ordering in. Are there ways, you got Amazon Go stores too and are probably thinking about where to put them, are there ways that this is causing you to rethink not only the kinda promises and obligations to a local government under different, you know, cultural circumstances, pre-pandemic, but also, how you do your own physical retail locations?

ANDY JASSY: I think that we're, we're like everybody, we're, we're trying to figure out what the changes will actually be. We have belief that we're gonna have a lot of people in the offices. And as I said, I don't know if it'll be every day but we'll have I think people will be in a meaningful amount over time as they get more comfortable coming back to work. And so, you know, we, we generate a lot of jobs in, you know, the various cities in which we live and we also, I think over the last few years, have invested a lot more in being a good neighbor, and, and givin' back to the community. And I think we're off to a good start with our partnership with Arlington. I expect that to continue.

JON FORTT: Also, in the pandemic, and the impacts from COVID, what about bigger picture, the macroeconomic impacts? What have you seen? What have you experienced?

ANDY JASSY: Well, there are a number of them. I'll just mention a couple now. You know, I think the first thing is, you know, in the U.S. our government has had to spend at unprecedented levels to keep our citizens safe. But I, I think if you look at our debt commitments and you look at where the debt ceiling is, it's a little concerning. And I, you know, I think it's, it's scary for consumer confidence and for confidence in U.S. businesses and, and, you know, potential credit ratings if we don't make sure that we raise that debt ceiling. I know that that's gonna be debated in Washington, but I hope we take care of it sooner than later in Congress. I think also education. You know, in modern economies today, like the U.S., it's pretty difficult to have the opportunities that are available and that are emergent if you don't have the right educational background. And there's a real division in the country. If you look at households with household income $56,000 or lower, only about 16% of those families have kids that go to college. Whereas if you look at households with over $108,000 of household income, about 82% of those families sent kids to college. That's a huge divide. And so if you wanna make sure that everybody in the country, and really around the world, have opportunities to participate in the emerging economy, we gotta make sure we have the right quality of education in all the communities in which we operate.

JON FORTT: Some companies, some leaders have said community college should be free. And standard.

ANDY JASSY: Yeah, I've, I don't know, it's, it'll be very interesting over time to see whether or not we have the same number of four-year colleges ten years from now because it's expensive. And I, I really do believe that we need to do more in this country and across the world in two-year colleges where we focus what people are learning on. You can learn trades and you can learn professions in a concentrated two-year education. And that, that could be a path moving forward that's really important.

JON FORTT: And that's an investment you're continuing?

ANDY JASSY: Yeah, we've been investing with two-year colleges around the country and I expect that we'll continue to work with those community colleges.

Part II

JON FORTT: Let, let's talk about workers. I was struck by Jeff's statement in the last shareholder letter. He wrote, "We are going to be Earth's best employer and Earth's safest place to work." And then later he wrote, "We don't set unreasonable performance goals. We set achievable performance goals that take into account tenure and actual employee performance data." Two things are out there that push against that. Many of us have heard about the pee bottles and, and delivery drivers. But there's also this group of labor unions that says that Amazon's workplace injury rate between 2017 and 2020 was twice as high as Walmart's, 50% higher than UPS and delivery. Is that the same data that you look at or are there differences there? And what's, what do you do about it?

ANDY JASSY: Well, you know, for us, employee safety is the priority, priority number one for us in our fulfillment centers. We have over 6,000 people that are safety professionals. It's all they do. We spent, we'll end up spending about a little over $300 million alone this year on safety in the fulfillment centers and we won't compromise on it. And so we're working really hard at it. I think we've made lot of progress. But we, you know, there's no shortage of things that we're working on continually to help people with some of the injuries that they can sometimes encounter in, in, in a physical manual job but it is our first priority.

JON FORTT: So, what's the, what's the playbook not to share the secrets, but the playbook to making progress? Is it looking at the data in the Amazon way and figuring out how to do training, which I know, you know, you've got the videos and you've got the practices about that. Is it dedicating a different kind of R&D effort to it? What—

ANDY JASSY: I think it's everything. You know, we obviously look at the data. We, you know, just in COVID in the COVID time alone, in the pandemic, we redesigned 150 different processes to try and make sure that we, we keep people safe and healthy. There's a lot of training that goes into it. We're working on all kinds of musculoskeleton types of, of apparatus and inventions to allow people to be safer in how they work. And it's a great thing by the way, we'd be happy if you haven't been through a fulfillment center, we'd be happy to take you there and—


ANDY JASSY: You can see some of the things we're working on there. So, you know, it's, it's a number of those things over time. And, and also employees have the ability to, to also tell us when there are things that they think they're doing that could be safer or that could help them be more, more healthy. We, we're interested in that feedback and they have that direct connection with our managers to do so.

JON FORTT: On, on the employee front, you were early in raising the minimum wage to $15, and even above. And you just announced this higher education benefit. You and I have talked about—


JON FORTT: Education before. And you know, through AWS, the work through community colleges. Why make that freely available now? What's the message, the impact for employees, and just sort of what you think benefits-wise that means in 2021?

ANDY JASSY: Well, you know, I think if you strive to be Earth's best employer and, and we have 1.2 million employees in, in lots of different roles and a number of people in our fulfillment centers, there are a number of things that you gotta work on to, to live up to that goal. One of them we were talking about just now is a focus an investment on safety. But we've known for a long time that we have to be competitive on compensation and benefits. And it's why to your point that we pioneered moving the minimum wage in our fulfillment centers above $15. It's, it's continued to increase. Today the average hourly salary is $18.32, which is more than double the federal minimum wage, you know? It's also more Jon than 40 million American workers make and so we need to raise the federal minimum wage. I hope the government works on that. But it's not just the compensation. It's also the benefits. We have a set of benefits along with the compensation that are very unusual you won't find elsewhere: full health insurance, 401(k), 20 weeks of parental leave. If you want to transfer that benefit to some of your, to your partner or significant other, you can do so. If you want to ramp back after the 20 weeks or eight weeks, working half the time, you can do so. You know, and then, you know, the Career Choice you're talking about, it's a program we've had for ten years but we've made a very significant enhancement to it a few days ago where we're gonna pay for our fulfillment center employees' college tuition which is pretty amazing and as well as if they want to do different upskilling and education each year to learn different skills, we're gonna support that. And we're hopeful that a lot of those folks use that to continue to grow their careers at Amazon. But we also know some of them may be elsewhere and that's okay, too. And if you want to actually build a place that people can have great careers at and want to be at over a long period of time, you gotta find ways to help people grow and to take on more skills and that's really what Career Choice is about.

JON FORTT: You got a Career Day coming up.


JON FORTT: Do you have to pursue that differently, execute it differently in this really tight labor environment?

ANDY JASSY: Well, I mean, the first thing that's different is just everything's virtual. And that's been true for the last 18 months. We've hired so many thousands of people over the last 18 months completely virtual, you know, where, where they don't come in for physical interviews, which is so different than the first 25, 26 years of Amazon.

JON FORTT: Why can you do that, by the way? We talked about this a lot--


JON FORTT: On air, that all these other companies are having trouble finding people. You just talked about benefits. You just talked about pay. I take it maybe you're getting feedback from those new employees on why they're joining you and not something else.


JON FORTT: How are you doing it?

ANDY JASSY: Well, I mean the thing to remember is Amazon's a very unusual place to work. If you are somebody who likes to start with a customer and build all your strategies, strategies and tactics backwards from there, who likes to look at customers experiences, and look at what's broken about them, and, and gets excited about reinventing them, somebody who likes to build, somebody who likes to have a big impact on the world, I can't think of a place where you can do that better than at Amazon. And so, I think it's very compelling to people. If you look at you, you mentioned our Career Day, which starts in a couple days, we announced that we're hiring 55,000 new employees in technology and, and corporate and then another 125,000 employees in our fulfillment center network. And, and the, the jobs are, are pretty broad. They range from software development engineers, to AI and machine learning practitioners, to product managers, to designers, to research scientists, all kinds of opportunities in entertainment and it's because our businesses are growing, you know? If you look at our, our retail, and our AWS, and advertising, and devices, and entertainment, and just overall together new businesses, look at Kuiper, which is our Low Earth Orbital satellite business where we're investing $10 billion over the next few years, I mean, we, we have a lot of businesses that are growing really rapidly and, and where you have an opportunity to impact the world. And I think for the right type of, of person, you know, and, and I think there are a lot of those right type of people out there, it's very inspiring to have a mission that starts with the customer and builds backwards from there and then has the ability to have an impact on the world, make customers' lives better.

Part III

JON FORTT: One element of Jeff Bezos’ legacy will be whether this handoff to Andy Jassy as the second CEO of Amazon is seen as a success. Jassy has long run the cloud operation Amazon Web Services. I asked him how he found out he was the pick to be Amazon's next CEO and how he intends to run the broader company now. Take a listen.

ANDY JASSY: Jeff called me and asked me if I was interested and he told me he was contemplating doing something different and stepping away and asked me if I was interested. And it was the early part, it was very early in, in 2021. And I was, obviously flattered and honored and I wanted to talk with my wife about it. Most decisions I've made in my life that I didn't consult my wife on was a mistake. And—

JON FORTT: That would be a big one to not—

ANDY JASSY: But I was—


ANDY JASSY: Yeah. I was pretty quick in, in saying yes.

JON FORTT: So all this by phone?


JON FORTT: Because we're in the pandemic.


JON FORTT: What, if anything, do you first think about that you need to do differently? Were you I mean, succession planning, I guess, is pretty common so you might have already had that it mind. But AWS is your baby, right? So, what do you do about that? What, if anything, different do you do to prepare for the broader purview?

ANDY JASSY: Well you, you're right. The, the first you know, probably the first thing I thought about was how to make sure we have the right succession plan in AWS. And, you know, we were really lucky and fortunate in AWS and it, it really was a big part of why the business has been successful so far that we had a very strong leadership team. And, and I think a lot of times the leader gets too much credit when things go well. And the truth is that any significant sized business, and AWS is a $60 billion revenue run rate business, it's growing 37% year over year. You have an operation and a business that's as large as that, you have to have great leaders and you have to have great directs of those leaders, you know, and, and great builders under, you know, all the way up through the business. And so the AWS team was very, very strong with a strong leadership and we were able to add somebody back in Adam Selipsky, who wasn't really an outsider. I mean, Adam helped build the business the first 11 years of AWS and ran sales, and marketing, and support. And so, to add Adam to an already really strong leadership team was, was really very beneficial and I'm excited about that. You know, I think also when you think about, you know, the other things I tried to do in getting prepared for the role is just, you know, I had some background. I, you know, before AWS, I had worked for about a half dozen years in the consumer business. I had, you know, co-ran marketing for a while and built our business plan for the music business and run it for a bit. And I'd been in our s-team meetings, our senior leadership team meetings for, for about 20 years, where I got a chance to see a lot of the customer and the consumer issues. But I, you know, I spent time trying to read all the business plans and, and trying to speak with all the leaders of those businesses. And we, again, we're just very fortunate. We have a really strong leadership team across the entire business and all the endeavors we're pursuing and I had a couple external folks give me some good counsel. And, you know, you do as much as you can to get it prepared. But, you know, there's, there's no substitute for, for being in the job. And, and there's no substitute for having a great leadership team which we have.

JON FORTT: You still gonna participate, I have so many CEOs in the tech space and even outside of it say, "Oh, yeah. I know Andy Jassy, you know, blah blah blah." So, I mean, you, you've been a part of it and I imagine, you know, closing some deals sometimes, you might be useful. Are you gonna be involved in it in a different way than Jeff was?

ANDY JASSY: We'll see, you know. I, I think Adam will, will really run that business. And he's the CEO of that business. And, you know, I, you, you don't forget about the relationships that you've built over several years and I expect to maintain those relationships. I, you know, I enjoy having those. And, you know, and there's an increasing number of partners that we have who are AWS customers but also work with Amazon in other parts of our business, whether it's devices, or retails, or ops, advertising and so, I expect I'll have some of those relationships. And however I can help the team, I will try to do so.

Part IV

JON FORTT: Let’s get to the last part of our interview with Amazon's new CEO Andy Jassy. Two key areas for the company I wanted to hit on, one its ambitions in media, streaming, MGM and NFL games, and two how it approaches artificial intelligence. Facebook had to apologize after its AI labeled video including a group of Black men as involving “primates.” I asked Jassy for his reaction to that headline and Amazon's role in influencing the guardrails and policies around AI.

ANDY JASSY: I, look, I, AI and machine learning has made, they've made incredible strides over the last, I mean, really, it's something people have been working for a few decades. I think particularly over the last ten years, the strides that we've made in that space are really substantial because the, the cost, cloud computing made the cost of computing and, and storage so much more accessible. But it's still a science that requires a lot of data and a lot of honing and a lot of refining of algorithms all the time and there will be mistakes made. And now, I think you don't wanna throw the entire discipline out because there are mistakes. I think you want to, you know, in my opinion, the people that use machine learning have to use it as a really important input as one of several inputs you're gonna make in a decision. And, you know, I think people have been using machine learning very successfully across a lot of dimensions. And where it often gets the most amount of scrutiny is in the law enforcement space. And to me, I, over time, I think we, you know, machine learning and AI will get stronger and stronger such that it will be an important input in how we make law, some law enforcement decisions. But it will be just one input of a human-driven decision. You have to make sure that you're making a human decision and use the different inputs you have like they do in other investigations. But I think machine learning and AI will keep getting better and I think we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater simply when you have mistakes. I think—


ANDY JASSY: I also really believe and we've talked about this for a few years, I think you and I have talked about this and we've talked about it as a company, that the, the federal governments should regulate what they want to see, and what guardrails they want, and how they're gonna hold people responsible for using machine learning or AI in an irresponsible way. I mean, there's lots of technology we can all use all the time where you wouldn't want to ban that technology because it's enabled so many customer experiences. But when people are irresponsible with the technology, there should be ramifications. And I think the same should be true here. And I hope the governments, you know, figure out the way they want to regulate it. And they, we want to do it in a smart way. And we're interested in helping participate and, and, and help. But I do think we could use some regulation there.

JON FORTT: Especially when it comes to, perhaps, having a disparate impact on certain groups of people?


JON FORTT: Right. Media. MGM is a big deal. We were just talking with Roger Goodell a few days ago on “TechCheck” about the NFL and Sunday Ticket being available and talking to a broad array of companies. And also, they want a tech partnership on really maximizing what they do. So, when you look at Amazon, all of it across e-commerce, AWS, Whole Foods for snacks during movies and games, just all of it, where does media fit in strategically? What's the importance of it and I mean, are you interested in Sunday Ticket?

ANDY JASSY: Well, you know, I would say, you know, first of all, with respect to the NFL, we have a very important partnership with them. We have on the AWS side, for, for many years as you know, we do the Next Gen Stats with the NFL and also their player health and safety efforts where they're trying to analyze hundreds of hours, thousands of hours of video to understand when you have head injuries or lower extremity injuries and, and trying to change rules and equipment to address that. You know, and then, of course, we, you know, we took a further step in our relationship with the NFL with Thursday Night Football. And we're very, very excited about that starting in '22 and we're gonna try and, and, and be inventive in, in the experience we provide for fans. I think more generally though we have a lot of passion and optimism for what we're doing in the media space. I think if you look at the success we've had with Prime Video and Amazon Studios, you know, we have hundreds of millions of people who are watching our, our original content. The people who, who subscribe to Prime, you know, get all that content for free, it turns out, when they actually consume the video content they also tend to engage in some of the other activities that, that are available through Prime. And Prime has a very broad set of benefits that we're increasing all the time. I think it's still early days for us in media. I, I think we're off to a great start but, but we do believe we have an opportunity to provide a unique viewing experience for our customers with really original and creative content.

JON FORTT: And finally, new TVs. Just announced them, coming out next month. Is that where it all comes together? The advertising, the Prime content, maybe even shopping on TV. Is that what we should perhaps look for there?

ANDY JASSY: Well, I think, we're really excited about the, the Omni series smart Fire TVs that we just announced and I think they're gonna be very capable. You know, it will it is integrated well with Alexa so you'll be able to say, "Alexa, what should I watch," and and it will give you recommendations. You'll be able to say, "Alexa help me find something on Netflix." It, you can say, "Alexa, play TikTok." We were the first to integrate TikTok with Fire TV. And so I think for a long time, people have found a lot of value in the viewing experience but also the selection of content that you have available on Fire TV and with what we have with our channels business. And you know, and increasingly, people will do commerce, you know, in these mechanisms. You know, between what we do with Alexa and what we do in, in the living room, I think we have an opportunity to change what's possible for people and what's accessible to people and, you know, for those that want to use something tactile to manipulate it, they will. For those that want to use voice, you know, I, I remember so long ago, you know, 15, 20 years ago how it was so inventive to, to have an app and to tap on an app, and, and get what you want. And when you when you experience great voice apps, it makes tapping on an app so circa 2005. And so, I think all those experiences are in the process of being reinvented and you'll see a lot more of that moving forward.

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