In an interview on FOX Business Network’s (FBN) Mornings with Maria (weekdays, 6a-9a/ET), JPMorgan Chairman and CEO Jamie Dimon discusses the 2016 election results, his expectations for the economy, tax reform, and infrastructure with Maria Bartiromo.

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On his expectations for the economy:

“You know, so I like the fact that that there — that the focus has been on growth and you see it when the — and the talk about the tax policy, you know, regulatory policy. I think growth is going to be very good for all Americans, not just for companies. So I like that. In fact, I think you’ve seen some of that optimism reflected in the stock price. And hopefully, they will be able to deliver some of that.”

On election results:

“I was surprised. I think most people were surprised with the results. But I went to sleep at, you know, at one point and woke up and drove to work and was thinking, oh, maybe this would be good for the economy and for the average American. And so I’ve kind of moved on.”

On corporate taxes:

“I’ve been on this for a long time, that our corporate tax rate is higher than all other developed nations, whether you look at the statutory rate or the effective rate, it’s been driving capital, brains and capability overseas for a long time. So if you reduce the corporate tax rate and you allow people to repatriate, you’re going to have — capital will come back to the United States, more investment will be made here. You know, some may end up in stock buy-backs and dividends, but so be it. That’s the people’s money, too. And so yes, I think there will be a very big positive. I think it’s very important the public understands that a lot of studies show that when you have corporations with lower tax rates, that one of the big beneficiaries is wages. They compete. They compete, you know, hard, to — to grow and expand. So, yes, I’m thinking — I’m hoping that will lead to a lot of growth.”

On tax reform:

“I think it’s very complex. I think at one point, you’re going to see, you know, them making the sausage. It will be painful for us to watch the sausage. You’ll be talking about it every day. So I think there’s a good chance you’ll have major tax reform. It hasn’t been done, I think, since like 1986. I would love to see it done.

In any event, I think you’ll see some tax reform done, lower corporate tax rates, some form of repatriation, which maybe will help fund infrastructure programs. So you’ll see something.”

On the market reaction to the election:

“I’ve always thought that, you know, particularly bank stocks, but maybe for other stocks, that the political, regulatory, legal environment was pretty tough and that, you know, for a rational reason that you would pay less for a company that’s under, you know, you’re uncertain about future regulations, you’re uncertain about litigation, you’re uncertain about the politics and that therefore, if you remove some of that or you think it’s going to get better, that should be a plus. So I think that if you think the economy is going to be stronger, that the regulatory environment will be more pro-business, that policy will be more pro-growth, that’s good for business. And like, again, like I said, the important part is it good for all Americans? This isn’t just about, you know, business.”

On tax rate:

“I mean our — our effective tax rate is 30 percent. So, you know, if you somehow cut that in half and reduce our tax bill a considerable amount — and I don’t know offhand exactly what that means to corporate earnings, but again, remember, the reason to do some of this stuff isn’t just to help big companies. It’s to do things which are good for the economy which help everybody. And, you know, that — that’s what the focus should be. And that’s why I think they’re doing it. I don’t think their interest in life is to help a bank. I think their interest in life is to help the United States of America.”

On 4% growth rate:

“I think it’s possible. You know, I point out to “The Economist” that if you look at all of the things we’ve been through in the last eight, 10, 12 years of war, great recession, huge regulatory environment, more and more global regulations, those things hold back growth. And they hold back confidence, both consumer and business confidence. So reducing those things, I think, will add to growth, yes. So I’m optimistic we’ll go north of 3.”

On whether Steve Mnuchin, Wilbur Ross, and Rex Tillerson are going to get past hearing confirmations this week:

“I hope so. You know, I mean past history says yes, unless something comes out that is terrible or that — but past history says yes. I also want to point out, I like the fact that a lot of these folks, they’re successful. They’ve been around. They’re knowledgeable. They’ve traveled the world. And they’re making a huge sacrifice to go do this, you know, not just the public scrutiny they’re about to go through, but in their own business life and personal life. And so I applaud them. And I think that a lot of these folks, you know, they’re patriots. They care about their country. They’re not doing this to line their pockets. They’re doing this because they think America can do better, you know, both here and around the world.

So I thank them for doing it. And hopefully, they’ll be part of a team that accomplishments some of these things we’ve been talking about.”

On infrastructure:

“Well, infrastructure is a very complicated thing. So you’re talking about ports and rivers and tunnels and roads… and grids and some of those things will be eligible for a PPI. And so I — and to the extent that is done, that’s done through tax cuts, etc. We will participate. And other things which are done not through PPI, but through government agencies, we’d (INAUDIBLE) for that, too. So but I think the really important thing is, the United States needs to have long-term, thoughtful proper infrastructure planned at the city level, the state level and the federal level. And, you know, it’s a shame that we — we can’t make that stop-start. We don’t run a company that way. You wouldn’t run your life that way. You have to think these things through, you know, and — and, you know, we’ve done a terrible job maintaining our infrastructure.

Our accounting is bad. We treat a massive investment in a bridge or a grid or a tunnel exactly the same way we treat throwing away, you know, half a trillion dollars. You know, I mean one is good for 10 years and conducive to future growth and one is not. So, you know, I would — I would change the accounting for it. I’d change how I look at it. I’d — and I’d have a lot be done at the city level. You know, see mayors know what they need and, you know, sometimes the federal government, you know, is giving money away and it kind of becomes a, you know, it doesn’t get — maybe get used in the best way.”

Please see below for full transcript:

PART ONE

DIMON: I was surprised. I think most people were surprised with the results.

But I went to sleep at, you know, at one point and woke up and drove to work and was thinking, oh, maybe this would be good for the economy and for the average American. And so I’ve kind of moved on.

BARTIROMO: So you thought about the economic portion of what’s going on, what Trump is coming out with.

Let me ask you about that.

What are your expectations for the economy as a result of his proposed tax policy and roll back of regulations?

DIMON: You know, so I like the fact that that there — that the focus has been on growth and you see it when the — and the talk about the tax policy, you know, regulatory policy. I think growth is going to be very good for all Americans, not just for companies.

So I like that. In fact, I think you’ve seen some of that optimism reflected in the stock price. And hopefully, they will be able to deliver some of that.

BARTIROMO: So do you think that companies will, in fact, behave differently with a 15 percent corporate tax rate, with this idea that money will come back from overseas because of a better environment in terms of repatriation?

Will we see companies respond and do something different that they weren’t doing as a result of this?

DIMON: Yes, I think the quote — I’ve been on this for a long time, that our corporate tax rate is higher than all other developed nations, whether you look at the statutory rate or the effective rate, it’s been driving capital, brains and capability overseas for a long time.

So if you reduce the corporate tax rate and you allow people to repatriate, you’re going to have — capital will come back to the United States, more investment will be made here. You know, some may end up in stock buy-backs and dividends, but so be it. That’s the people’s money, too.

And so yes, I think there will be a very big positive.

I think it’s very important the public understands that a lot of studies show that when you have corporations with lower tax rates, that one of the big beneficiaries is wages. They compete. They compete, you know, hard, to — to grow and expand.

So, yes, I’m thinking — I’m hoping that will lead to a lot of growth.

BARTIROMO: So you think tax reform will actually get done?

DIMON: I think it’s very complex. I think at one point, you’re going to see, you know, them making the sausage. It will be painful for us to watch the sausage. You’ll be talking about it every day.

So I think there’s a good chance you’ll have major tax reform. It hasn’t been done, I think, since like 1986. I would love to see it done.

In any event, I think you’ll see some tax reform done, lower corporate tax rates, some form of repatriation, which maybe will help fund infrastructure programs. So you’ll see something.

The big question is how much?

And they’re — and they have to coordinate that, obviously, it has to go through legislation.

BARTIROMO: The market had such an incredible reaction. I mean your stock up better than 20 percent just since election day.

Why do you think that is?

DIMON: I’ve always thought that, you know, particularly bank stocks, but maybe for other stocks, that the political, regulatory, legal environment was pretty tough and that, you know, for a rational reason that you would pay less for a company that’s under, you know, you’re uncertain about future regulations, you’re uncertain about litigation, you’re uncertain about the politics and that therefore, if you remove some of that or you think it’s going to get better, that should be a plus.

So I think that if you think the economy is going to be stronger, that the regulatory environment will be more pro-business, that policy will be more pro-growth, that’s good for business.

And like, again, like I said, the important part is it good for all Americans?

This isn’t just about, you know, business.

BARTIROMO: I’ve got to tell you, you sound a little like a Republican, Jamie. The last time we spoke, you said you were a Democrat hanging on by your fingernails.

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: How would you characterize yourself today?

DIMON: I don’t anymore.

(LAUGHTER)

DIMON: I mean Independent of mind.

BARTIROMO: A lot of analysts are saying as a result of the 15 percent corporate tax rate, earnings could be up 20 percent when we actually see this take place.

Does that sound right to you?

Could you see JPM earnings up 20 percent on a year that the corporate tax rate is at 15 percent?

DIMON: I mean our — our effective tax rate is 30 percent. So, you know, if you somehow cut that in half and reduce our tax bill a considerable amount — and I don’t know offhand exactly what that means to corporate earnings, but again, remember, the reason to do some of this stuff isn’t just to help big companies. It’s to do things which are good for the economy which help everybody. And, you know, that — that’s what the focus should be. And that’s why I think they’re doing it. I don’t think their interest in life is to help a bank. I think their interest in life is to help the United States of America.

BARTIROMO: In fact, they’re talking about growth of 3.5 to 4 percent…

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: — in a short period of time.

Are you buying it?

DIMON: I think it’s possible. You know, I point out to “The Economist” that if you look at all of the things we’ve been through in the last eight, 10, 12 years of war, great recession, huge regulatory environment, more and more global regulations, those things hold back growth. And they hold back confidence, both consumer and business confidence.

So reducing those things, I think, will add to growth, yes. So I’m optimistic we’ll go north of 3.

BARTIROMO: We’ve got the confirmation hearings this week. Obviously, Steve Mnuchin today know Tuesday, has got Wilbur Ross, as well. Wednesday, you’ve got Rex Tillerson.

Do you think these guys are going to get past confirmation hearings?

DIMON: I hope so. You know, I mean past history says yes, unless something comes out that is terrible or that — but past history says yes.

I also want to point out, I like the fact that a lot of these folks, they’re successful. They’ve been around. They’re knowledgeable. They’ve traveled the world. And they’re making a huge sacrifice to go do this, you know, not just the public scrutiny they’re about to go through, but in their own business life and personal life.

And so I applaud them. And I think that a lot of these folks, you know, they’re patriots. They care about their country. They’re not doing this to line their pockets. They’re doing this because they think America can do better, you know, both here and around the world.

So I thank them for doing it. And hopefully, they’ll be part of a team that accomplishments some of these things we’ve been talking about.

BARTIROMO: It’s a totally different approach, having businesspeople running government agencies.

Do you think it could work?

DIMON: Yes. I mean if you look at history, you know, some businesspeople have been very successful at it. Some haven’t. So I don’t think you’re automatically successful because you’re in business. But I think having a successful career helps you, having to learn and listen to people and make mistakes, etc. I don’t think we should ever be in the position that we think that because someone is successful, they shouldn’t have one of these jobs; because they know a lot, they shouldn’t have one of these jobs.

And I think the — the notion of somehow that they’re not a patriot because they’ve done business in complex countries around the world, that’s true for most of the companies. You know, I’m — I’m convinced that some of these people are total and complete patriots, just like the rest of us and we shouldn’t question that because they’ve been a successful businesspeople.

BARTIROMO: Now, I was hearing that Donald Trump wanted you as Treasury secretary.

Were you offered the job?

DIMON: I’ve always been quite clear that I’m not suited for the job and I never really wanted the job so — and I was not offered the job.

BARTIROMO: People think you would have been the great — the best the Treasury secretary, though. But OK, you didn’t want the job. You (INAUDIBLE)…

DIMON: I appreciate that, but I like what I’m doing and I have a new job, too, as chairman of The Business Roundtable. And, you know, and I do, by the way, want to help. So, you know, my view is there’s a new president and I’m going to do everything I can to help make that president successful.

So as you know, I agreed to go on that group for jobs creation, I forgot the name of it.

BARTIROMO: The CEO Advisory Group.

DIMON: The CEO Advisory Group led by Steve Schwarzman. So I’m going to do everything I can to — to participate and helping the folks in the administration do the best they can.

BARTIROMO: How can you do that?

I mean when you see a group of CEOs and a CEO advisory sort of off-site panel, what does that mean?

You’re going to be giving advice to — to President Trump?

I mean how do you see yourself working with this administration?

DIMON: Yes, so one is we’ve got a panel and the other is through any other thing. So we’ve always — and even with the Obama administration, the Bush administration…

BARTIROMO: That’s right.

DIMON: — if they ask us to do and help something, we’ve done it, including things like Bear Stearns, by the way. And so we’ve always tried to be helpful around policy, analytics, thought, issues they have, mistakes they think we might be making, they — or maybe they want us in, you know, capital markets in another part of the world.

So whatever role we can play — and we could be just (INAUDIBLE) of some of the folks at JPMorgan Chase, but we will do that. And I think business could be a huge positive factor collaborating with government. I’ve always believed that government and business collaborating together are far stronger than them, you know, being at each other. And so I’m, you know, I was right in the second I was asked.

BARTIROMO: I know you have. And you’ve talked about it a lot. In fact, there is also an opportunity for business — private-public partnerships as it relates to the infrastructure program…

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: — that Donald Trump is talking about.

The banks, I guess, are going to fund some of that.

Do you see opportunities for JPMorgan to be raising debt, raising securities as a result of the infrastructure program?

DIMON: (INAUDIBLE).

BARTIROMO: What do you envision?

DIMON: Well, infrastructure is a very complicated thing. So you’re talking about ports and rivers and tunnels and roads…

BARTIROMO: Yes.

DIMON: — and grids and some of those things will be eligible for a PPI. And so I — and to the extent that is done, that’s done through tax cuts, etc. We will participate. And other things which are done not through PPI, but through government agencies, we’d (INAUDIBLE) for that, too.

So but I think the really important thing is, the United States needs to have long-term, thoughtful proper infrastructure planned at the city level, the state level and the federal level. And, you know, it’s a shame that we — we can’t make that stop-start. We don’t run a company that way. You wouldn’t run your life that way. You have to think these things through, you know, and — and, you know, we’ve done a terrible job maintaining our infrastructure.

Our accounting is bad. We treat a massive investment in a bridge or a grid or a tunnel exactly the same way we treat throwing away, you know, half a trillion dollars. You know, I mean one is good for 10 years and conducive to future growth and one is not.

So, you know, I would — I would change the accounting for it. I’d change how I look at it. I’d — and I’d have a lot be done at the city level. You know, see mayors know what they need and, you know, sometimes the federal government, you know, is giving money away and it kind of becomes a, you know, it doesn’t get — maybe get used in the best way.

And there are legitimate complaints about some infrastructure programs were badly managed.

BARTIROMO: The other part of Trump’s plan is the rollback of regulations.

Do you see Dodd-Frank changing?

DIMON: Probably. You know, look, (INAUDIBLE) Dodd-Frank happened, OK, everyone — even the Democrats I spoke to said a lot of stuff was put in there and at one point, there will be an appropriate time to open it up, relook at it, analyze it, calibrate it, coordinate it, get rid of the duplication and stuff like that. So, you know, we’re not looking for wholesale throw it out, change everything, the world is terrible.

But I think it’s perfectly rational to look at what works, what doesn’t work, what you’re trying to accomplish. And so, you know, that’s — that’s one that will be opened up, too.

BARTIROMO: It seems like it would be a positive if the Volcker Rule goes away, if they ignore the Volcker Rule.

Do you see that as far as things happening?

DIMON: Just let me separate the Volcker Rule into three pieces — hedge funds not a big deal. Propriety train not a big deal. I’ve always thought that — and market making (INAUDIBLE) could market (INAUDIBLE) the markets. You have market making in chicken, cotton, corn, everything — rebar, everything in the world. You need it in financial markets.

And I think you would need it for market making. I think that the rules that have already been put in place, you know, capital, liquidity, repo rules, reporting rules, requirements, rules of reporting back to the, you know, the proper authorities for what people have done, that was sufficient.

So I’ve always thought it was — that was duplicative. And the Fed just came out with a study itself, which they released some time between Christmas and New Years, I believe, which said that their own study shows that, you know, capital markets in the corporate bond market making, in times of stress, it has been (INAUDIBLE) because of Volcker, and which I’ve been talking about for a long time. And now the Fed has come back and confirmed it.

It’s not a major thing, just it could be calibrated.

PART TWO

DIMON: So I always remind people, the most important thing about interest rates is the why?

Why does it go up?

And I do believe you have a very good chance you’re going to have rates go up a couple of times this year. But the why is for a good reason, because the American economy is strengthening, inflation is going to where you want it, the wages are going up, employment is going up. That is a good reason.

And that reason trumps all other things.

You could — you could point out some of the negatives from higher rates, but a strong economy trumps all other things. And I think our economy has been — it has been OK and is probably getting stronger.

BARTIROMO: Do you think that Fannie and Freddie will eventually become privatized in terms of housing, in terms of the fact that banks don’t even do the majority of mortgages anymore, how do you get government out of the mortgage business?

DIMON: You know, one of these things we didn’t do, and, you know, partially because we had these regulations — there are so many people involved in mortgage regulation, we never finished them all.

And, you know who got hurt because of that?

The American public, particularly people who were first time owners, people with prior credit problems, not bad people, but they had prior bankruptcies, etc. Self-employed.

And it needs to be fixed. And so — but if you look at the mortgage market, there are good things to do and bad things to do. So I’m hopefully going to be part of that conversation.

That was fixable, too. And I — and don’t make it binary. You can come up with many different forms that actually work for the American public and are safe. What you can’t do is have you — a wish list of whatever you want if that’s what it’s going to be because embedded in that, you know, you end up with like a warthog and it won’t be a very good-looking animal and I guarantee you, it will lead to the next crisis.

BARTIROMO: I was looking, too, in your conversation with your colleagues that’s there at the health care conference and you said, look, you’ve got to get your head around higher rates.

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: I mean somebody in a meeting said 2.54 percent. You said get your head around…

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: — what?

DIMON: Well, Lasko (ph) was here and they asked me the same question. I said get your head around higher rates. And I said go quite a bit more, you know, 20 basis points or 30 or whatever is in the implied curve. I think (INAUDIBLE) last year it was at 1.5 or 1.6 and now it’s at 2.5, etc.

Again, it’s the — it could be much more than, you know, 3 basis points, 100 or 200. I mean I’m not saying — again, it could be for good reason. It’s just things happen that people don’t expect. You know, as capital gets used, as growth goes, as the natural buyers of U.S. Treasuries are basically almost gone, which is foreign exchanges managers and the central bank, you might have more volatility and higher rates.

Again, as long as America is growing, that’s not the most important thing. The growth is the most important thing.

If you had the higher rates and the stagflation, that would be terrible.

BARTIROMO: I mean you say get your head around 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: You talk about the 10-year.

DIMON: I always plan — I plan for the worst, yes. I don’t — I’m not predicting it’s going to go there.

BARTIROMO: Right.

DIMON: I say, yes, rates could be…

BARTIROMO: Don’t be surprised.

DIMON: — higher in five years than you think. Don’t be that surprised.

BARTIROMO: Would that be…

DIMON: You just — by (INAUDIBLE) it’s no different than, you know, when people are surprised that oil falls 50 percent or copper goes up or down 50 percent, or zinc. Commodities, which is what money is, move and they move dramatically with very small changes applied to demand or sentiment. We should always keep that in mind.

BARTIROMO: Let me ask you about the consumer. You have a really great vantage point in terms of what’s going on. I want to know about credit. I want to know about consumer spending right now.

How would you characterize the health of the consumer?

DIMON: I — I think it’s quite good. You know, since the end of the Great Recession, I think, what, 16 or 17 million jobs have been added. The wages are going up. The last report showed that wages are going up pretty dramatically for the first time in six or seven years.

You know, we have always seen, you know, credit spend, auto, auto sales are at an all-time record. Home sales are going up. Home prices are up.

So the consumer looks like they’re strengthening. That doesn’t mean every segment is strengthening yet. You know, and we all would like to see more strength be built at the lower end. But it seems to be getting better. Consumers seem to be in good shape.

BARTIROMO: Are there areas of the consumer that you think will get more impacted than not as a result of the incoming policies?

I’m talking whether it be mortgages or retail or auto lending was one area that a lot of people were worried about?

DIMON: I — I was not worried about it. Probably the first you mentioned that might go bad. Auto lending is a trillion dollars or something like that. A portion of that, some percentage, 30 percent is subprime mortgage. It’s rather small in the great scheme of stuff.

What we were talking about is, is it is getting a little extended. Mortgages, before the last crisis, were something like $10 trillion or $11 trillion. And subprime mortgage, depending on how you measured it, was $2 trillion. I mean it dwarfs an order of magnitude. So I’m not worried about it.

And I think if you have a general recovery in the economy, it helps everybody. You know, everyone complains now that, you know, middle class incomes aren’t going up enough and very often people say things are not true. This one happens to be true.

The — I think that growth will change that. I think growth will create more competition for lower skilled and therefore give them more income. And I think it’s a good thing for America. We need that in America today.

And, you know, there are people who have been left behind and we should be doing something to do it. And even business should be doing that.

BARTIROMO: How about credit cards?

DIMON: Credit cards have been doing great, but, you know, when — you know, when you go through a terrible cycle, usually you have a good one. And so spending has been going up. You know, we’re more in the — in the prime. So you have to talk to somebody who’s more in the subprime area.

But credit — credit card credit has never been better. And it’s going to get worse, but not because it’s bad, just because it’s never been better and you should expect it to tick up a little bit from here.

BARTIROMO: So you don’t worry that people are getting a little extended again?

I mean are we going too far now?

DIMON: No.

BARTIROMO: OK.

DIMON: No.

BARTIROMO: What would you…

DIMON: If you look at the — asset prices are up, OK. Home prices are up. And claims way up. Those all drive credit. Wages are going up, OK, and so if you look at credit, it’s actually — all the underlying things about credit are good. Home prices are a big part of people’s assets. You know, having open jobs and the ability to move a good part of what people look at when they look at credit.

So most parts of consumer credit actually look pretty good.

BARTIROMO: So a loan growth?

How does that look?

DIMON: In what area?

BARTIROMO: Loan growth generally speaking at JPM.

DIMON: It’s — I’m not — I can’t talk about current results, because we were…

BARTIROMO: Right.

DIMON: — (INAUDIBLE) this week. But — but pretty good this year. If you look at this year’s loan growth, it’s been pretty good in commercial, real estate, auto, credit card. I mean it’s good. Use a healthy economy.

BARTIROMO: So let me ask you, there seems to be so much time spent in the last several years on compliance, on regulatory issues, the amount of money, time and energy that you’ve generated.

Do you think, given this new day that we’re seeing in terms of these policies, that changes?

Do expenses start coming down?

DIMON: Yes, I hope so a little bit. I mean I — look, I’ve asked the question — again, we have to do what the regulators demand we do. We don’t have any court of appeal or any way to look at it.

I think there’s been a lot of things that have been done that if you go back and say what was the effect, like certain (INAUDIBLE) and BSA, how many bad guys did you get, I think the answer is like very little. And so when you’re spending billions — if the industry is spending, you know, tens of billions of dollars, you know, I talk to a lot of community bankers. And we’re the biggest banked community bankers. And if they’re telling you this is — this is stopping them from growing local loans, that’s a big deal. You know, it’s a far bigger deal in the smaller community they operate in.

And so, you know, I think people should look at that exactly the same way. What’s working, what’s not working, what do you want to calibrate, you know, anti-money laundering (ph), know your customer, what kind of files do we want to keep, how hard do we want to make it?

And, you know, no one — no one I know, any in banking wants to be part of a terrorist (INAUDIBLE) or — or a criminal activity. No one.

You know, the question is how far do you go?

What’s the (INAUDIBLE) going to be if you make a mistake?

So — and we’re automating a lot of this stuff, too. So at the end of the day, we’re going to be able to get some of these costs down regardless of whether there are changes in regulations.

BARTIROMO: Yes. You’ve done an incredible job in terms of technology. And I want to ask you about that.

But in terms of efficiency rate, you’ve talked about this long-term 55 percent target.

Do you see that happening sooner rather than later as a result of this?

Positive operating leverage?

What’s going on with regard to expenses?

DIMON: Yes. No, I think we — we’ve held expenses pretty flat. But the — the important part, it’s after investing in technology, people, systems, ops (ph), branches, you know?

It’s easy for a company to say well, I’m going to, you know, hold my expenses flat but not do any investing for the future. That is a long-term target of 55 percent. Obviously, if there’s growth and, you know, as you know, interest rate growth helps our revenue line, and if we can hold our expenses flat, you will get there much quicker simply because of that.

So that’s — that’s our target to recycle. Sometimes it’s going to be higher, sometimes it’s going to be lower. But we still think that’s probably rough. We’re going to update that on investor day in February.

BARTIROMO: So do you think that you are going to see positive operating leverage as a result — partly as a result of these new policies coming out?

DIMON: I hope so, but we’re going to give a more update in February.

BARTIROMO: Yes. Let me — let me ask you about the amount of money you spend on cyber security. I mean I know the last time we spoke, it was $500 million to $600 million.

This is a major issue. That along with the amount of money that you’ve spent on compliance. I mean this — these are huge expenses.

DIMON: Yes.

BARTIROMO: Talk to us about it.

DIMON: (INAUDIBLE).

BARTIROMO: Characterize it.

And will you start…

DIMON: Cyber, we have…

BARTIROMO: — where does it go?

DIMON: — cyber, we have to do. I mean cyber is a big deal in the — in terms of both perimeter controls, stopping people from coming in. We have extraordinary cyber capabilities. We’re working very closely with the government, but also inside the company, when you move money, either individuals or the corporation, we know what you do and when you do it, how you do it, where you do it, what your patterns are and we stop it if there’s something wrong.

We look at what our own people do. We know what they upload, what they download and where they go, because we — we worry about the internal threat. We have — we obviously encrypt things. We have all these protections in place and we have disaster recovery plans if something goes wrong.

So we’re going to be up in business. And I think most of the big financial companies are in pretty good shape there.

I think the financial companies and the defense companies are way ahead of everybody else. I think it’s critical for the United States of America. So this is not — this is not just a bank issue, this is an issue that everyone has to look at it and say this is — and you obviously saw this Russian hacking. We have to be on top of this.

For some people, it’s IT. For some people, it’s criminal. For some people, you know, they could be in a position to cause havoc if there’s a war.

So we — we have to really do it and we’re — we’re going to do whatever it takes.